Since the post on Trilema on this subject directs question to this here blog on what I do I will address the general concerns as best as I can. First the block on text describing my part in all of this:
- BTC FX, run by BingoBoingo. So far this includes a smallish BTC/ATC operation on Apocalypticâ€™s exchange and a somewhat larger BTC/RON operation on Naphexâ€˜ exchange. The latter is structured so that no withdrawals are possible at the managerâ€™s initiative ; there are no special safeguards in place for the former.I will consider expansion of the venues, if reasonable. The manager does not have the authority to do this on his own. The manager does however have full authority to construct any trading strategy he deems appropriate. So far the trading strategy broadly speaking consists of trying to extract a net profit out of the wide margins of the exchanges in question, while at the same time providing regular users with some liquidity. This has been rather successful so far on BTC/ATC, it remains to be seen if BB can take his game to the next level.ii Further inquiries on his strategy, plans etc should be directed at his blog, or (if youâ€™re voiced) on irc.
And that's pretty much the thing in a nutshell. ThickasThieves conversation on his role is here, and establishes the principle that basically things that aren't public information about the goings on aren't going to be disclosed privately.1 Monthly results will be reported per the an0 format.
Generally what's going on is gone over in the logs. Basically with the BTC/RON operation, starting with 10 BTC, the goal is to realize gains denominated in BTC. The method for doing so is going to be patience. This means that I'm not going to be hitting the exchange with bots. This means that once the first asks are filled and there is a RON denominated balance to start placing bids it could take substantial time to get back to 10 BTC while building a buffer of RON be able to maintain bids.
The way this has worked with the ATC market has been sometimes I've dominated the bid side and sometimes I've dominated the ask side. The biggest difference with the BTC/RON pairing from ATC/BTC is that I doubt I can become big enough in price determination to force prices in BTC/RON like I can to an extent with ATC/BTC.
herbijudlestoids: Apocalyptic: im trying to build a microstructure3 and get paid appropriately for it4
herbijudlestoids: i am not the only one with this game in mind it seems, someone has an algo waiting5
herbijudlestoids: and if that was you, butthole :P6
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: No, I just manually sniped your bids after that fail.
herbijudlestoids: i own ~3000 more ATC than i did a few minutes ago
herbijudlestoids: now you took my bids i got no more bids
mircea_popescu: lol BingoBoingo in battlegear
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'm just waiting for the next challenger to try to close the bid-ask spread
herbijudlestoids: haha ffs BingoBoingo
herbijudlestoids: lets see how you like this then
herbijudlestoids: this is slightly more amusing than chess BingoBoingo
herbijudlestoids: is it really just you
herbijudlestoids: or is there other participants in this shenanigans
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: I dunno
BingoBoingo: if you want the market to be liquid at ~100 so be it :P
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: You are the one who keeps Buying high and selling low
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo as rickles once said, he's making a loss on every trade but hopes to make it up on volume.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: My favorite part of this exercise is the one where I nao have moar ATC and BTC
BingoBoingo: Except for that mistake in their order matching left me down some ATC, because string and cans
herbijudlestoids: BingoBoingo: the goal was to seed a microstructure, but if you dont want one, thats coo :) i can just lift the offers
herbijudlestoids: now what? nothin. boring.
herbijudlestoids: we coulda played pass the parcel
kakobrekla: first you need to fake up the volume
Vexual: im coming to the party
kakobrekla: to get some eyes watching
herbijudlestoids: kakobrekla: isnt that wut i said
pankkake: should fake volumes be a feature of altcoingen.io? :)
kakobrekla: i have no idea what you said
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: I believe this point came up in the -assets log earlier. You didn't need someone with 100 BTC to beat your efforts at Market Marking. All it took as someone with 0.015 BTC and some ATC.
herbijudlestoids: ? thats exactly what i said would happen?
herbijudlestoids: i am not capitalised correctly to make bids
herbijudlestoids: and if im not capitalised correctly then the best i can do is the best i can do
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: Or you could simply try to not become less capitalized?
herbijudlestoids: BingoBoingo: yer, in which case the spread stays at 300 and nobody gives a fuck about the market
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: It isn't necessarily unhealty. It simply means sellers and buyers have a disagreement.
herbijudlestoids: BingoBoingo: ok well let us see how much activity occurs with a spread of 300, my guess is none.
herbijudlestoids: probly between me and you there has been more activity in ATCBTC in the last hour than the last 5 days
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: Consider this a lesson in fundamental assumptions that vary between the fiat and BTC worlds. Fiat can have money come in at any price.
herbijudlestoids: not really sure how this is any different from a fiat market
herbijudlestoids: aside from lack of leverage7
herbijudlestoids: its just a two way auction.
BingoBoingo: BTC on the other hand is too expensive to throw away on making a market look right.
BingoBoingo: It is more important the market actually BE right, than to look "right"
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: Consider the spreads on S.BBET and S.NSA
herbijudlestoids: right, so the correct state of ATCBTC is no trades? gg
mircea_popescu: what is the atc voluem to date actually ?
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: No the correct state is trades only when there is an agreement between buyers and sellers on value.
herbijudlestoids: sweet fuck all
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Earlier this week it was up to 0.1 in a 24 hour period on Openex
mircea_popescu: herbijudlestoids gotta be a least a coupla bitcoins by now
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo so like ~2btc total ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Nah, it wasn't sustained long enough
herbijudlestoids: i count the cumulative volume as 0.18
BingoBoingo: trades only when there is an agreement between buyers and sellers on value << where have you traded - and what? - where trade happens in some other way?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: unless i'm missing something, trade only happens when buyer and seller agree on a price. when goods change hands regardless, we usually use another word for it.
herbijudlestoids: asciilifeform: you say price, BingoBoingo is talking perceived value.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well,sure
mircea_popescu: i thought you were both discussing other people's other trades
mircea_popescu: rather than your own
herbijudlestoids: nah i put some bids in, try and create some interest, bingo wanted the bids instead of pass the parcel...now nothin
herbijudlestoids: i dun have enough BTC to keep the shenanigans goin
BingoBoingo: When he put in asks I also found them palatable.
mircea_popescu: "so, fiat quant finds crypto playground, gets creamed" ?
herbijudlestoids: well, it was my assumption that BingoBoingo wouldnt wanna see the last trade as ~100 but i guess i was wrong
herbijudlestoids: mircea_popescu: i have not been creamed in any market since may 6 2010 :)
mircea_popescu: well what happened here then lol
mircea_popescu: traditionally "i had a plan, gotta discontinue cause out of capital" is creamed.
herbijudlestoids: mircea_popescu: i sold some BTC for some ATC? at above the diff implied price?
Apocalyptic: mircea_popescu, that's what happens when you're MMing with low funds
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic you're always going to be low on funds. this is bitcoin.8
mircea_popescu: herbijudlestoids so then what's the prblm ?
herbijudlestoids: mircea_popescu: no problem specifically, but its unsustainable, id prefer to continue making a market around the diff implied price than not
mircea_popescu: how is it unsustainable, selling btc for atc at above diff implied price ?
mircea_popescu: or you mean, the atc was above ?
herbijudlestoids: i mean, now that i have no BTC in the account, i cant make the market...thats all
mike_c: so you made some profitable trades and now you're broke.
mircea_popescu: so then you got creamed
mircea_popescu: it is either one or the other you know.
herbijudlestoids: not really sure how im failing to explain this
mircea_popescu: either what you do is profitable and sustainable, or else it isn't. we have a word for that latter.
herbijudlestoids: so if i make a profit, but i cant make another profit, it counts as getting creamed?
herbijudlestoids: just to clarify on your definitions?
mircea_popescu: cause obviously you didn't make a profit.
mircea_popescu: you just booked a profit
herbijudlestoids: i find your definitions to be strange
herbijudlestoids: and confusing
BingoBoingo: I made two profits.
And a couple days later I became MP's ATC trader.
- In the interest of this, once the account on the exchange was set up and working I relayed to Mircea that I placed an ask of 2BTC at 1645 RON. No other orders placed will be disclosed publically or privately. Since it has been disclosed now I might remove it or something. [↩]
- I don't promise a complete retelling here. For that there are logs. [↩]
- Soon to be famous last words. [↩]
- Someone got paid... )
herbijudlestoids: haha fuck yes!
herbijudlestoids: already some bots seen it ((Spoiler: It wasn't a bot. [↩]
- Nope, just me. [↩]
- I've cut out some cruft about the now defunct, but then only ATC/BTC exchance being shit. [↩]
- This part makes a tremendous difference. [↩]
- This is probably the most important point of the matter. Markets are already existent, you can't really make them in a primal sense. You culture them and cultivate them. [↩]